LuAnna  

Welcome to the Crop Stories podcast, where we bring the pages of the Utopian Seed Project's Crop Stories publication to life. Based here in the mountains of Western North Carolina, we're on a mission to strengthen our food system through the power of agro-biodiversity and the relationships that sustain it. Our Crop Stories program helps achieve these goals by connecting people to specific crops and their stories. If you believe in a more resilient, storyful future, consider supporting us as a monthly donor. You'll find the details in the show notes, and again, welcome to the Crop Stories Podcast. I'm LuAnna, and I'm so glad you're here.

Well, hello everyone. Thank you for joining us in on our first ever crop stories podcast episode. This podcast will act as our audio companion to Utopian Seed Projects Crop Stories publications. The Crop Stories program was designed to kind of creatively share the stories that connect people and places through food and seeds through a crop focused journal. And so through the journal, we hope to kind of continue bringing folks together around stories and personal reflections, to sort of highlight these crops and their people. And now we have the goal to expand this, expand people's interactions with crop stories through audio. And so each crop stories journal will now be accompanied by a podcast season that features the written pieces from the publication as well as a deeper dive into them with an expert in the field. Through this podcast, we kind of hope to inspire folks to become more involved in the crops that we cover and to read the journals in their entirety. We also aim to offer another way to connect with the crop stories program through this podcast and extend the interactions that people are having with these stories. Today, we are joined by the incredible and renowned seed steward, founder of the cooperative, owned Southern Exposure seeds company, Ira Wallace. Miss Ira is a writer, esteemed gardener, heirloom expert, humble leader, and has a big heart for southern food and seed. It's an honor to be with you today, Ira. Together, we will begin our deep dive through the collards edition of Utopian Seeds Projects, Crop Stories journal. Miss Ira will be our resident collard expert as we listen in to the authors reading their own excerpts. In each episode, Ira will offer her reflections and thoughts on the topics at hand, and we will have a discussion around the piece afterwards as well. So thanks for sitting down with me, Ira. Before we begin, is there anything you'd like to share about yourself, your work with collards or the Crop Stories program as a whole before we get started?

Ira  

Well, yeah, a little bit just to say that I live at Acorn Community Farm, an intentional community and the home of Southern Exposure. And it is through my work with Southern Exposure Seed E xchange and the early years of working with Monticello on heritage harvest festival for 12 years that I was reached out to about this collection and many other amazing southern varieties and crop types. So it's so important connections and spreading the word about fabulous southern food.

LuAnna  

That's perfect. Yeah, that's exactly what we came to do today, is spread the gospel of these southern crops. Well, Miss Ira. I can't thank you enough for joining us. Our first collards excerpt that we're going to feature is actually Chris Smith's piece titled the heirloom collards project. This is a really great introductory piece to the collards crop stories as a whole. So I'm excited to kind of do this piece alongside our introductory episode. So to get started, we're going to listen to Chris's together as he reads through his words

Chris Smith  

The Heirloom Collard Project, written and read by Chris Smith. The classic greens of the South are mustard, turnip and collard. I’m not a massive fan of mustard greens, definitely favoring mustards of the whole-grain persuasion. I don’t mind turnip greens, although I prefer the roots, sliced thin and fermented.  But collards ... collards are a magical green. I haven’t always known this. In 2017, at Monticello’s Heritage Harvest Festival, Dr. Sarah Ross of the Center for Research and Education at the Wormsloe Plantation historic site in Georgia and Ira Wallace of Southern Exposure Seed Exchange (SESE), dragged me into a conversation about a large U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) collection of heirloom collards, more than 90 varieties. Tor Janson, formerly of Seed Savers Exchange (SSE), was the other person at the table, and Ira and Tor had already been working to request and grow varieties from the USDA collection.   The aim was to take this beautifully diverse collection of collards; grow and evaluate them; regenerate seed stock; and offer them through seed catalogs so everyone could enjoy them. Soon after this meeting, we created a website (heirloomcollards.org) and an official name, The Heirloom Collard Project.   But the collards had a story way before I took an interest.   In 2016 Ira traveled to Charleston, South Carolina, where Dr. Mark Farnham, a USDA geneticist, was running an observational trial of all the collard varieties in the USDA Collection. Ira describes rows and rows of beautiful collards in all sorts of plant structures and colors and combinations. “It made me feel like we needed to make a commitment to regenerate these varieties and make sure they’re available to future generations of gardeners and farmers,” said Ira in a video about the project. Shortly after visiting Charleston, Ira reached out to Tor at SSE, and they started dreaming of how to bring these collards back to the people. Now, some of these varieties are available through SSE and SESE, and more seed regeneration work is underway.   But again, the collards had a story before Ira got involved.   Ed Davis and John Morgan, professors of geography at Emory & Henry College in Virginia, spent large chunks of the early 2000s driving around the backroads of North and South Carolina. They were searching for collards and are the people largely responsible for the USDA’s impressive collection of heirloom collards, which inspired the work of The Heirloom Collard Project. In 2015, they published Collards: A Southern Tradition from Seed to Table. This impressive book led Ed to Ira, and Ira to the collards.   But the collards had a story before Ed and John started searching for them. They acknowledge as much in their book, writing “contemporary Southerners owe much to the collard lovers who came before us — the cooks who developed and passed down over centuries so many delectable ways to prepare collards. We also owe  hanks to those pioneers of the garden who did the work to develop the collard plant to what we know today.” It needs stating explicitly: We owe thanks to the enslaved African Americans who, robbed of their freedom and their homelands’ foods, adopted the collard and integrated it into gardens, kitchens, and therefore Southern foodways. This isn’t written about in the culinary and agricultural texts of the 1800s because enslaved people were forbidden from learning to read and write, but evidence of their influence shows up in the way food is cooked and the early cookbooks written by white women.   At the beginning of 2020, Norah Hummel and Phillip Kauth of SSE, Ira Wallace, Melissa DeSa of the Florida-based nonprofit Working Food, and myself came together and launched a nationwide collard trial with 20 heirloom varieties. Hundreds of people across the country grew a random selection of three varieties, and eight larger trial sites grew all 20. With all that collard energy, 2020 ended with a weeklong video series focused on education and celebration around collards, now viewable at heirloomcollards.org/ collard-week-2020. The collard trials (and enthusiasm) overflowed into 2021, with overwintered collards and seed saving activities, and grant funding from the 1772 Foundation that allowed us to host a Collard Visioning Meeting in Asheville, North Carolina. Knowing that the collard story is way bigger than ourselves, we brought together an incredible group of collard-loving people to discuss the future of The Heirloom Collard Project. It was an inspiring and beautiful weekend, and many of the ideas are already weaving toward reality. Working with seeds is always an important balance of honoring the past while looking to the future, and as we dream forward, it is clear there is much work to be done. The Heirloom Collard Project aims to reconnect the seeds and culture of collards through food and community, and we want many more people to join that community. Or, as Ira wisely and simply stated, when talking about the collard collection, "You can grow some, and you  can eat some, and then your  commitment will be sealed."

LuAnna  

So Ms, Ira, would you please just share your initial response or reflections to this piece, like, what were you thinking about as Chris was reading his own reflections on the heirloom collards projects, but also talking about you and the work you've done. How did it feel to kind of just hear this spoken word about it?

Ira  

Well, I felt a little humbled, because this was, you know, a personal enthusiasm that suddenly a large community is forming around. And this was just the little the center of the road. But, you know, we knew Michael Twitty, and he spread the collard word, not through just the things that we did, but other activities he was involved with, like at Old Salem and in the neighborhood there getting local varieties and that that, you know, the first variety that was regenerated for the project was in that area by a group of African American sorority ladies. And it just like all these memories came rushing back, I was amazed, because people, everyday people, saved these seeds, and they were on the brink of extinction, because so many less people garden, and even less seed saved at this point, and our small group and reaching this information and samples of the seeds out to a wider group, hit on something, like it's kind of like collards are the poster child of the African diaspora, and it has also speaks to white Southerners. It was one the food that, in hard times, kept people healthy and fed. So I don't know. I'm going pitter patter, yeah.

LuAnna  

No, I think, I think that's beautiful, and you're onto something there. And, yeah, it's interesting to kind of hear how thinking of these benefits of this project, right? It's honoring these seeds, these legacies, this black culture and stories. So one question I have for you, like those things, obviously, but more explicitly, like, why do you think it is important, or was important, to kind of regenerate and make the USDA's collection of heirloom collards available to the public. You were saying, you know, they were going extinct, but really, like, the USDA has this collection of collards that are sitting there and so, yeah, just kind of, if you could expand on why, why you think it's important to the work of collards, but other crops alike.

Ira  

I think it's important because if we think that food sovereignty, that farmers having more agency in in their work, and not just growing what the contract for a supermarket says or something that having things that cause people to want to maintain these seed saving skills and maintain a wide diversity, genetic diversity that is selected just for a certain kind of climate and a certain taste palette, that this collection is an opportunity to showcase this important, healthy vegetable, and to look at have people who say, Well, I'm not a farmer, or I don't really be a seed saver. You don't have to save everything. And even in the days when people saved a lot, most people only saved a few things and they bought the rest of their seeds, but the things that they saved really mattered to them. They like the flavor. They grew exceptionally well for them, and this the genes in collards are the same, like in broccoli and cauliflower and these that whole family, you know, for example, having nematode resistance, which some collards have shown, is there. And when we save them for their flavor, we're also saving all of these agronomic characteristics, so it's just exciting, and it reminds me of my grandma.

LuAnna  

I love that. Could you kind of, I have some other questions for you, but just pausing on this thought of your grandma, what the first memory of your grandma and collards, and what is it reminding you of her doing?

Ira  

Well, she had a patch of mixed greens, but the collards, the the turnips and mustard, were mixed together, and you just either picked a mix or separated them by the way they look, but the collards got big, so they were on the edge in their own section, and we would have on the weekends them at least once. And it just reminded me of the kinds of dishes that I grew up eating, and they were also easy to harvest because they're so tall and big and yeah, that, I guess that was what it was with her, and being in the backyard where we had fruit trees and a garden that had to be shaded in the summer to keep producing, and it was shaded on the south side by pecan tree, but it would get nice morning sunlight even in the summer. I guess that's it. And you know, she didn't just garden. She cooked really good.

LuAnna  

Wow, that sounds magical. Well, thanks for sharing that. I love to kind of sit with the pictures that you're, you're drawing. It kind of puts it in perspective this connection that you have to this food. I have a question regarding your quote that Chris used in his piece, you stated you can grow some and you can eat some, and then your commitment will be sealed. This idea kind of suggests a direct connection to food, right? So if you could just share a little bit more about how does growing your own food, even a small amount, change your relationship with that crop, and how does seed play a role in its relationship as well?

Ira  

Well, I think growing successfully even a little bit of food, people take pride in it, because we kind of joke about those $10 tomatoes you grow, but you just bite into it and it, the juice goes down your arm, and it's really amazing. Or you can have collards. You can have them when they're young and tender. You can have big ones so you can make collard sandwiches with them. You can, you know, have have a diversity of a crop that is easy to grow. I think that when people make a recipe the way that your grandmother made it for the holidays or something, that it it's not just flavor, but it's the memories of all the happiness and fun in the family that was happening when you were eating those things as well. And there's things like, you know you're gonna do southern peas coming up. And there is nothing like a fresh shelled pot of summer Southern Peas. It just isn't like what you get in the store. So it's kind of like fresh off corn in the cob. Fresh pit is just carried up to a higher degree of tastiness. I forgot what you asked, hahahaha.

LuAnna  

I love it. I mean, you definitely were touching on it, this idea of, yeah, how growing your food changes your relationship with that food. I know a lot of people always ask me, like, how do I get into seed? You know, how do I get into this work? And it's like, just find one food, just one thing, one crop that you love, even if you don't know how to grow it yet, and then figure it out and hone in on it and then save the seed. But yeah, I was just curious how seed plays a role in this relationship to our food and crops. And I think you you answered it, but if you have any other ideas around, yeah, how to use our food as like a source of inspiration for seed work, I think inherently, it is, but yeah.

Ira  

Well, the other thing with growing some of your own food is you can grow special things like herbs or things like uh, hibiscus sabdariffa, Roselle, and making a drink out of it. And a small area can bring you something very special and unusual, and you don't have to, you know, have a half acre for that to happen. Some people grow them in pots.

LuAnna  

Yeah, it's good to put that in perspective, right? Like you don't have to be this massive farmer to have this connection to growing your food. I have this other question kind of related to the heirloom collard project, just thinking about the benefits of this project and projects alike, these type of collaborative approaches to seed preservation and education around food and crops. What do you see as a benefit of other projects kind of going towards this more collaborative approach to preservation?

Ira  

Well, it decentralizes it. It makes it that when something happens, like what's happening with the government now that a lot of programs are being defunded, but if actual everyday gardeners and farmers have taken seed saving, at least on a small scale, into their own practice. It can continue that work no matter what happens with institutions. And I think that's important, because the reason that this collection was there is because these older seed savers had continued to save the seeds even when it was no longer fashionable. So I think there's that, and it allows young people, because a lot of the people who are involved in adjacent projects, or school gardening projects or community gardening projects, where young kids to high school kids are growing collards and selling them or providing them for their school lunch programs and things like that.

LuAnna  

Yeah, totally. Going back to what you said earlier, to kind of end on this idea of food sovereignty and moving towards more a decentralized way of being in this food world. What kind of projects do you see forming and to kind of uplift the work of food sovereignty around specific crops in the south, or just around farming and seed preservation in general, for us to reach this goal of food sovereignty in the South.

Ira  

Well, you know, having people have the basic skills to save at least simple varieties. I mean, collards are good because they're biennial, but in the southeast, they can be left in the field. So you don't have to store them. But people store them successfully. You know, all of these Midwest people who are getting and upper midwest people who are getting into the collard project, and they think it's worth bringing those in or put them in space in their greenhouse work, but here in the southeast, we don't even have to do that. We can have them outside in the field, and it gives us something that is a late winter. I mean late fall, early winter, and then early spring, harvestable crop to sell. Know a guy in Maryland, Brosco, who we called him the king of the winter vegetable in DC area. And he would have 30 acres of outdoor greens of various sorts, and be able to have been selecting for winter hardiness, and be able to supply all these restaurants and produce markets and farmers markets. That's something that you know, he's on a big scale, working with a lot of college interns who spent any of them continue to be gardeners or farmers after they worked with him when they see it's possible. And he did his seed saving for these more cold adapted varieties, for growing outside. There's just so many things about not just eating, but also, the variety allows the small farmer to have more beauty and diversity in the way their market stands look. And normally, you know, a single shopper would only buy one kind of one bunch of collards or two. But if you have three, but three different, really distinct looking ones, they might just have to have one of each. So, and that is something that you don't have to be fancy to have control over as a farmer.

LuAnna  

And yeah, thinking about, you know the heirloom collards project, and where it's going, right? It's doing all of these, there's so many different collard projects popping up now. It's obvious people love, love collards, and they carry such a weight, especially in the southeast. I guess, what are your big dreams for collards? And where do you hope to see it, you know, kind of go and also, how do you think people who maybe are obsessed with a crop that isn't as renowned or well known or loved in the southeast, yeah, how would you suggest someone kind of doing some sort of collaborative project, like the heirloom collard project, on a on a, maybe a smaller scale, with a crop that isn't as people are, as passionate about?

Ira  

Well, sometimes in the early days of my working with heirloom tomatoes, it would be taking them through a whole thing, having a variety of heirloom tomatoes on your at your market stand, but the next year, having seedlings of some of those varieties as well available, having ones that are good for different culinary purposes, a sauce one, one that's good for drying and so forth, and having information available, doing projects with school children, highlighting those what you consider in important varieties. And you don't have to have, you know, 40 different ones. You can have three to five different okras that are distinctly different looking. And share a lot about okras and how they how they are at different stages, and share recipes, for example. Or you can bring something that isn't as common but was common when I was growing up, like butter beans, or, you know, and you can have little baby butter beans. You can have big, giant Limas and ones that are really nice when they're green, some that are more for letting mature and dry and making soup in the winter. And the thing, as any kind of a food person, you're you're selling something to eat, but you're also selling a story, and sometimes a time and a place that doesn't exist, but was important at one time.

LuAnna  

One word that's stuck out while you were talking was this idea of diversifying, right? Always better to diversify, and especially when you're you know, starting out these projects or starting out with a crop, diversifying the genetics, diversifying ways you use it, yeah, definitely carrying that idea with me. Miss Ira, is there anything else you'd like to share kind of in relation to Chris's piece before we wrap up our first episode of this pilot podcast?

Ira  

Well, yeah, one little thing is one reason that Chris, you know, mentioned that collards were something that weren't written about the African American enslaved people who did a lot of the early selecting and learning how to cook with these greens that made it such a staple in the south. And when we think that, why wasn't this vegetable more widely spread, and part of it was the thought that it was for poor people and black people. And now we can say the fact that it grew in such trying circumstances in marginal gardens to be something that kept people healthy in really difficult times. Is a reason to, you know, bring it in to making your garden a place for growing healthy food in these times.

LuAnna  

Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. And yeah, it's interesting just reflecting on my own childhood, you know, I similarly ate so many collards, and to this point of, like, going to school and like, people not having that experience around me and feeling pushed back on. Oh, I, like, other people aren't eating this. I don't want to eat this as a child. So thanks for sharing that. I think it's really important to, yeah, reflect on those relationships, and to acknowledge the cultural impact of collards for black people and the way that it was used as a tool to belittle people. And now just sitting here with you and getting to do this podcast and talk about, I'm like, giddy over it, almost this just how powerful, and hear you share your thoughts around it. 

Ira  

Remember that $64 dish of collard casserole that you could order from Lehman and Marcus when the collard project first started, I was like, I guess you got to do it to have everybody be able to have some, the people who spend too much on food, can eat some too, hahaha.

LuAnna  

Hahaha, that's right. Well, I'm excited to, you know, get to listen to the rest of these collard pieces with you to see what else we chat about and the input you have to share. Miss Ira, I can't thank you enough for sharing your thoughts today and joining us on this season of the Crop Stories podcast and being our collard expert, you really are. And so next episode, Miss IRa and I will be diving into another excerpt from the collard magazine. So thanks for listening and thank you, Ira, for just being with us today.

Ira  

Thanks for having you do such good work with seeds and support our love for heirloom collards.

LuAnna  

Thanks for spending some time with us in the crops we love. Every seed we save and every story we tell helps shape our food system into something deeper and more resilient. If today's episode sparked a bit of curiosity, please share it with a friend or fellow gardener, and if you're able, head to our show notes to become a monthly supporter via our crop stories, donation link. Your contributions help keep this project going. Thank you, and until next time you.